Marriage Secret Keeping One Couple Together and Another Apart

Transcript

Speaker 1

Make love not war has joined patrion. What's Patrion? You ask. It's an amazing website where fans like you can directly support an artist like an Italian prince would do during the renaissance era for artists such as Leonardo Da Vinci or Michelangelo. You don't have to donate a bag of gold and silver like a patron prince to be awesome. Simply go to www.patrion.com/make love, not war and click become a patron. It takes about three minutes and it's very easy. If you feel like a wealthy Italian prince after donating a few bucks, well then you go ahead and own that feeling. Today we interviewed two women. Hope and amber both got married in their early twenties. One is divorced and the other one is still married. Find out the secret to keeping a marriage together and what tears another apart in this episode of make more love, not war. Hi, and welcome to make more love not war. This is Tara Harrison, a licensed professional counselor and relationship expert. This is her husband, Jeff Harrison. Have no qualifications whatsoever. Just a normal dude.

Speaker 2

All right. Today we're here with hope and amber and so hope and amber, both of you got married pretty young. How old were you? I was 21. I was 22. Wow. So at that age, what, what were you thinking that marriage was going to be like? What were your expectations of it? Well, I knew it was going to be hard. I was like, all right. Um, we had already gone through some stuff. We'd been together for two years and we lived together for a good part of that. I think he moved in with me after four months and so we knew what it was to live together and manage finances and like I think I finally like a was okay with not keeping track of what he owed me like a month before we got married because I was like I'm not going to get screwed over on money or anything like that. And I wanted to make sure he knew how to manage money and stuff like that. So I kind of knew going into it what it would be like, like and all that. But. So that was one of the, the things you were looking as, how does he manage money as irresponsible? And I mean, I, I, I'm divorced now,

Speaker 1

but you looked at the thing, I looked at that and he was, was,

Speaker 2

he was better about, he was better about keeping a job and stuff like that. And then after we get married I, he just, something clicked in him where he had to have a job every few months and couldn't stay with it and it was just, I was the person always making more and I had the health insurance and then um, after I had our first child we decided together that he was gonna finally stick with something and I was going to be the stay at home mom and we were going to switch those roles around and he was going to be the more financially dependable one. And I felt like we could do that. But after, I don't know, I think it was like about a year it fizzled out and they in to get stressful. And we actually started doing couples counseling because a lot of stress within our relationship, in other aspects, and we were getting to a point where trust was getting back to where I was comfortable because I was the one that had trust issues.

Speaker 2

Um, where the trust issues that you brought in, were those related to him or were they from other things in your life or both? Both. It was a mixture because, um, I mean I got with him when I was 19, so I mean all my relationships before that were from like high school. But like, so I didn't have like mature relationships before that. I guess the guy, I mean, yeah, like he would never was an adult so, but so he, um, because he was only a year and a half older than me and uh, I was definitely more mature and um, so like I had been cheated on multiple times and I had just emotionally been abused, died, had a boyfriend that wasn't trusting of me for no reason at all. I'm just because he had been cheated on. And so I carried that on to my relationship with the guy I married was, well, all I've had is people that have cheated on me.

Speaker 2

And before, like when our relationship was new, he had gone to Mexico and he got drunk and he had told me he could have never told me, I would've never known, but he decided he was going to tell me that he was, I can't even remember exactly, like feeling up some girl on the dance floor and make it out with her. Then he tells me he got in a cab and threw up all over the cab and had to pay for it. Like, well, have you heard of Karma natural consequences? And um, so that was just kind of at the beginning of our relationship. And I was like, well, it's really show something that he can tell me, hey, I did this when he could have, I would have never known nobody that was there I knew and what. And but so I was like, okay.

Speaker 2

And then he had lived four hours away and that night he drove four hours, calls me at three in the morning. And was like, Hey, I'm at your house, I want to tell you, sorry, face to face. And I was like, okay. And he's like, I was about to move into my new apartment and he's like, I want to because my family was moving away from me and he's like, I want to be here for you and stuff. And we'd known each other before this. It wasn't like four months. I knew this guy was, I known him about a year and he's like, I'm going to look for a job while I'm here visiting and if I can find one then I'll move in with you. And stuff like that. And that's kind of like, well he did something that I don't trust but he's willing to step up and try to make up for it.

Speaker 2

And I think that's why I continued on with the relationship and try to fight for it and did all the counseling whenever things weren't easy anymore. And um, who initiated the counseling? I think it was, I had said something like, I never tried to bring up divorce unless I was like, this has to, this is something that's on my mind. And he had gone to one of my friends talked to her and she was like, you just need to get into counseling. And I think he was the one that scheduled it and um, we kept up on it and then uh, he eventually started trying to cheat on me and I found out accidentally because he was like, oh look at these photos I took on my phone and I found like pictures of him in his underwear. And I'm like, well that wasn't for me. So he was trying to cheat on you by sending pictures of himself and trying to have us on a business trip trying to get women to come to his hotel to have sex

Speaker 3

on craigslist of all. I was like crazy. Wait, tender are so many more convenient ways of doing this. Like what, what year are you in? I mean, when we got together in 2009, he still had the Nokia brick phone. So I guess that kind of explains it. It's an old school guy. Yeah. Well it's interesting. I mean it's, especially since both of you, he initiated the counseling and both of you worked really hard to repair your relationship and he had been open in the past. I bet you were really blindsided by this. I think it all

Speaker 2

related to, he wasn't open sexually. He wasn't open sexually. Yeah, he, uh, he just didn't. He felt like he couldn't communicate and thought I was a prude.

Speaker 3

Uh, so he, he did the whole Madonna whore thing, like his wife was going to be the on a pedestal

Speaker 2

and he was just going to go get dirty somewhere else. Yeah. I guess,

Speaker 4

I suppose the thing is, is that denied you that experience of having some Raunchy sex too and who doesn't want that? You know, it's like,

Speaker 2

I mean, can you. I feel like being really open and communication sexually is very great and relationship and for important. Yeah. And if, since he couldn't do that it, we couldn't see eye to eye and stuff like that. He couldn't just be like, Hey, this is what I like. Can we try it? I think at one point he had said this is what I like, and then just never was like, do you want to experiment with anything and stuff like that. And it's like, I don't know what I would have said. I'm not exactly sure where, just because how the relationship had progressed at that point, there wasn't, there wouldn't, maybe would not have been enough trust at that point too. For you to try something new. Like he had to stretch yourself. You hadn't been open to things I had suggested either. Just so it's like okay.

Speaker 2

Or yeah, sometimes he would, sometimes he wouldn't and it just kind of became one of those strains and there's just lots of random strangers that came up. Yeah. Well and I think that what happens in the bedroom as a microcosm of what's going on in your relationship to their strains in the relationship and you don't feel like you can trust each other than you don't open up. Yeah. Sexual either. Yes, definitely. I was mad at him once and I woke up and I was like, man, I really want to have sex, and I was like, hey,

Speaker 4

you're going to do all the work. I'm just gonna lay here and do nothing. You go down, you're going down on me. Okay. Enjoy. And did that work for you? It worked out. That was willing to work hard technique because he knew how mad I was and then it eventually worked up to we're going to get a little rougher with this a

Speaker 2

few nights later.

Speaker 4

So you were able to fuel some of that? Yeah know I heard lots of people talk about this. Let me give this a try. Angry sex. So it was it overrated or was it all right? That was pretty good. It's pretty good. I mean don't always having sex. That's not always fun. Right? But every once in a while I'll just kinda like dash of spice in your life. Yeah, it's a good way though. If there is some sort of trust to work out emotions together, you can through roleplay and through angry sex and stuff like that, you know, where you can really work out those feelings together because sometimes it's really hard to put them into words

Speaker 2

as much as we try to communicate. Sometimes you really need to communicate physically. Yes.

Speaker 4

Well I definitely was as mature as you when I got married for sure. Like I,

Speaker 5

I thought it would just be, you know, bubbles and sunshine and my expectations were just not where a real marriage is. So it was like Disneyland, I guess in my head. I just thought we'd get married and he'd be happy ever after and um, you know, I definitely had to learn over the years that it's a lot of work and you know, we've, my husband is six years older than me, so, you know, he was a little bit older but it's just, we still basically grew up together and had to learn all that stuff together and how to do everything. So yeah. So when did that change for you going into the marriage? Feeling like it was going to be happily ever after and then finding out that I realized that like it's pretty fast. Yeah, I mean we, we got pregnant with my first daughter, I want to say nine months in the marriage, maybe 10 months. So that's a big deal around. We hadn't been married quite a year yet, so that's when things got really real that, you know, we had to grow up in like, this wasn't just about romance, like we're going to be a family and we're gonna have to figure all that out. So

Speaker 5

there were still married, so I guess we've done a pretty good job so far because we've, we've had some pretty tough times and so far we've made it through all of them. So when we're going on eight years, no more than eight years. Eight years in two kids now, right? Yeah. Eight years. Two kids, a dog house, all this stuff, all the stuff, all the things. I don't have a white picket fence. Oh, let's go on that. So what, what can you remember? What was your first major challenge that came up? Were, I mean, you said that it happened pretty fast, what came up where you were really like, okay, wow, this is not exactly what I thought I was going to be. I think it was when my husband graduated college because he graduated right around the time I got pregnant and in my head I thought, oh, he's going to get a job right away and we'll get a house and we'll just, it'll just happen.

Speaker 5

And it didn't happen that way, you know, it was 2010, so it was still pretty hard to find a job. So, uh, we lived with my parents until my daughter was 18 months old. So that's, I mean that's how long it took him and that was really challenging for us, kind of just being stuck where we were and trying to start our family, living with my parents and getting through all that. And at the time, um, you know, I made a little bit more money than him. I just worked a little more than him and I was in school and so it was just really hard for me to.

Speaker 5

It was like, this is not how this was supposed to be. We were supposed to have all the stuff in, you know, and it wasn't like that. Yeah. We had to work really hard. I especially, I felt like it was working really hard to kind of manage everything at the time. So that was, that was really difficult. And when you say manage everything, you said you were in school, you were working, you had to get a little one. You're living with your parents, so then you're managing those dynamics. I remember when I first had my daughter feeling like, I think I had a little bit of postpartum depression and I would talk to um, I talked to the nurse line that my work had provided and they called to. It was like, the last appointment was after she was born and they called the ceo, things are going and I just kinda was like, you know, I'm just really overwhelmed with everything.

Speaker 5

And I start telling her like, yeah, I've got finals this week. And she was like, you finals, you have a three week old. Like, yeah. Oh my God. She's like, amber, you have too much going on. Like it's okay to be overwhelmed. That is normal. That was like eye opening for me. I'm like, yeah, maybe this isn't normal and maybe I don't. I don't have to get so fixed and everything. It's okay to be where I'm at and that, you know, kind of pulled me out of that. And when you bring up a really good point, because I think that we, as much as we all love Disney movies, I think they kind of screwed us all up in the head because it does see I have to get on later. Ones are getting better, but it does seem like everything just happens naturally in perfectly.

Speaker 5

And so we grew up on that stuff and we, you know, part of us knows it's not real, but the childlike parts of ourselves still believe in that kind of love and then it's going to be easy and that roles are going to be clear and things like that. And real life is messy. And the thing is, is knowing that it's okay to be where you are. That is normal I think is really helpful for a lot of people just to know like other people are struggling like this too. And I was young at the time, I was 23 years old so it was just a lot to process that and. But yeah, we've made it through that and here we are eight years later and different problems, different days. It's still hard. We made it through those things so yeah. And so you grew up together through some major milestones, graduating college, finding jobs, establishing careers.

Speaker 5

That's a lot to go through together. Yeah. And that was another big thing for us because I never planned to be a stay at home mom. I always thought it was going to go to work and it just kinda didn't. That's not how it works for us. So that was another big thing that I had to get through. Being okay with that and letting him. I've always been very independent so letting him take the lead and be the moneymaker and, and taking a step back and raising her children was very. That was really difficult time for us too because we just had to get used to those roles. I had to get used to that role of not not doing everything like taking a step back. It's okay to do just these things and not

Speaker 3

worry about some of the other things.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Be able to give yourself that time and space to take care of yourself through that too. You don't have to be super woman. Yeah.

Speaker 2

What is healthcare still not a thing. I mean I haven't had a pedicure and over a year guys, I'm like, I need to go do that and then I'm like, but I don't know how to make time to do things. Just like by myself, I can make time to go do things with friends and stuff. I like play dates and whatever, but whenever I'm like, what do I want to do? Like I would like to go do this and yeah, I never like, that's so rare when it happens to me. I don't even know what to do with myself when I'm like, I have no kids and nobody, everyone's busy. There's no one to hang out with. What am I supposed to do? I'm about to get like three hours every other Saturday without kids where I'm like, okay, and then eventually it's going to be eight hours. It is just going to keep. I mean I have some kids you can borrow. I feel like I should maybe try to say I'm not going to babysit unless I absolutely have to on those times so I can have that two and a half years of he can go and do whatever he wants. He doesn't have to get a babysitter and he can

Speaker 2

stay up late. He can sleep in and I'm. I mean I've stayed up late but I can't sleep in late as you want. But

Speaker 3

yeah. Well the thing is is you get so much in mom mode and taking care of everybody else mode that it becomes a challenge to listen to yourself and then when we get into place, when, where we need to, we find ourselves avoiding it because you haven't exercised that muscle and so it feels uncomfortable to think about what do I want? When it'd just be a lot easier to be like, oh, okay, well this is what my friend wants and I'll go even do something with a friend on your downtime is maybe still not doing the right thing for you. Sometimes. Being able to give yourself the time to listen to yourself is really important. I'm just a very extroverted person, so like, and it's probably something I need to grow on as a person doing things alone because I always want to be surrounded by people. So like that's probably something I need to start working on is it's okay to do things alone and I should to help me grow

Speaker 3

for sure. Just be able to listen to yourself. Yeah. Well I think the fact that you're extroverted, you know that's a need. You have that connecting with other people, feeds you, is you listening to yourself, but the major thing to be aware of is, am I putting someone else's needs before mine consistently? Am I surrounding myself with people so that I, I don't have to assert my own needs for myself because we're rewarded when we take care of others. It's a social reward, you know, so it's easy to really caught up in that. Yeah, I mean, I think anything you ever think about it. I got married so young so I don't really know how to be alone. Yeah. I've always been with. I've been with my husband since I was 18. That's a really good point. And then you lived with your parents. Did you live with your parents until you married your husband? We lived with them together until we got our house, so I've always been with somebody. Yeah. Whenever,

Speaker 2

uh, during my marriage I eventually got to a point where I felt alone even though I was with somebody and that's where I was like, okay, this isn't going well, we need to work on stuff. And um, then once I left him I was like, it's not so bad when I was alone I didn't feel as lonely. Not having him around, if that makes any sense. Like you, I guess I was craving that connection that I wasn't getting from him. And then once I left I was like, I'm okay alone. It was, I wasn't okay with somebody that was talking so much energy out of me because I'm a nurturer and I was trying to help him through his issues he was having in life and because he also was going through some mental stuff like he was. Anytime things got hard, it was I'm suicidal and I eventually was like, you need to go to a psych ward.

Speaker 2

Like I can't take care of you. I am nine months pregnant. Go on, go take care of yourself. I need to take care of what's going on here at home. And then once I was released from that I was like, okay, this is what it feels like to be okay to be alone. And like not just by myself and doing it like I wasn't even by myself with my kids because I moved in with my mom, but we at that point we were like independently living our own lives and she was working at that and I was just. I had a newborn. I was focusing on taking care of her and taking care of my almost three year old and it, it was like a big weight off my shoulders, but it was also kind of a stressor too, like, oh, it was a very conflicting emotion. Like, okay, I don't have to worry about this other person, but I have to worry about where I'm going to go on from here. And I've just been growing from that point ever since. And I feel like I feel better emotionally ever since.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Because you realize that you'd rather be with someone who feeds you instead of drains you. And if you're not with someone who Fiji, he'd rather be with yourself and feed yourself. And I think that that goes back to that self care. When you know that you can feed yourself, then you don't have to stay in a relationship that even though you and work and work

Speaker 2

and try to make it work with you. You did. You did everything you could. Um, you, you don't have to stay in that relationship because you know, you, you can be alone if you need to. Uh, he even asked if, once I was like, said it was done, he was like, well, maybe in six months we can revisit this. And I go, no, there's never going to be trust. I already know. And that's not the relationship my children, our children need to witness. They don't need to see this, that you don't want to. I don't want our children to model their future relationships off of us because I don't think we're gonna ever get to a healthy place. Yeah. And I think I made the right decisions and what I've done ever since broke potential generational patterns that could have developed from now.

Speaker 7

So you've talked a lot about things that went wrong, but when you got married, what actually went right? What was actually better? Did you emotionally feel more connected with your husband or was what happened in that?

Speaker 2

We, I mean we had a great since of like our sense of humor, like was very similar so we could, when we were in a good place and communicating, it was always laughter. Like we were having fun. We would come up with stupid games, we had the game because you're going to be like what

Speaker 4

heck called ton tag where we would just lick each other and how playful you have fun together and run around or apartment. Which one time he ran into a door and got a black guy. He was like, you're going to go to work and be like, I ran into a door. I promise my wife did not do this to me. That's the. It's the classic excuse. Right. But it really happened and, and

Speaker 2

we, we were able to get to a point and say, hey, I'm feeling these emotions and we could communicate that, but it was how each of us would kind of handle it. That kind of became some issues. Like he would like, I would want to have my space to just kind of process what I was thinking and he would be pushing me, pushing me. Like, come on, come on and let's talk. Let's talk. Let's talk. I'm like, can I have a minute? And he wouldn't let me have that and if I try to just walk away, he would grab me by my wrist and hold me there. And um, he had anger issues and so some, that's when communication started to cut, go back because I was scared to communicate at some points, stuff like that. But, um, we were, we kind of had the same values with like family, like we really valued having our family time always try to make time during the holidays to go see our families.

Speaker 2

But then that was an issue. I don't know, it was just like really like the things that would click would later on fall apart. It was like he, I don't know if he was trying to live apart that he thought he could eventually mold into because he felt like in our relationship, marriage was the next step. Having children was the next step. Instead of saying maybe what I need is to go do this. Like he wasn't living the true to himself thing and I was there trying to figure out what I had to do. I was always trying to be like, what can I do, what do I need to do, what's wrong with me, why are we having, why are you trying to cheat on me? What have I done? And I don't know. We had some. Okay. Sex. He got distracted easily and I'd be like,

Speaker 4

Hey, I'm over here. You forgot you forgot you're having sex. I didn't. I'm still here. Can we continue?

Speaker 5

See, we definitely, um, I mean we married each other for a reason. Yeah. We definitely still had our connection through all of our hard times, which I think is what kept us together. Um, but, you know, it was, it was definitely having values and having the same goals and that kind of stuff that kept us treading water and you know, as our kids came into our lives and stuff and we made our moves, we had, we just had all the same values and what we were looking for. And so that's kind of what's always pedal this through.

Speaker 2

The bad stuff was.

Speaker 5

Yeah, those were really looking for those same things. Yeah. It sounds like you not only had shared values but you also had a shared dream of what your life would look like together. I like to think so. Not here to ask what I like to think so yeah. Because being able to dream together and have that kind of connection is really powerful. You have the friendship which is the base and then all the way up to being able to share your dreams and goals together and help each other realize them is a really strong way to connect. So that's what I hear you saying that you felt like you both have. Yeah, we definitely, we definitely have that and we always. I mean we both knew when we first met, you know, we're both working at target part time. I mean we really just were like young.

Speaker 5

Yeah, just trying to figure things out. Um, but we both knew we wanted to graduate and that was something we had to give each other space on. I can remember my husband's sitting in the closet for like hours all night long studying for his exams because he was, he became accountant and that's really hard work and you know, just giving him that space like I know he's stressed about that and I'm going to leave him to what he's got to do and then, you know, when it was my turn, when I was getting to the harder stuff and you know, he would take roles with our daughter that, you know, I needed him to. He knew, okay, amber came home from work, she's got to work on this. So he would take the baby and handle things and we always functioned really well like that. As parents we've always been very functional against each other. Yeah. And you're really strong team. Yeah. And you see it as a team. Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah, he's a, he's a great dad. I've always, I've always been like, man, why couldn't remind you that want to come home and spend time with our child and [inaudible] she'll. Yeah. You just want to come home and spend time like what men are like. The problem is if he's two nights

Speaker 5

it's, I gotta be the bad cop because he just, he can't say no to those girls. He loves them so much.

Speaker 2

No, that sounds familiar. Maybe I just needed to have a girl first. It's not about you. That's the thing. As you said, there was nothing else you could have done. Yeah. I felt like I did. You definitely did. And the thing is that the two of you really just didn't have sheer dreams. Yeah. He, he had lots of random dreams. Go Cart, go cart place. Well you try to stop that. He was trying to check boxes, you know, like earlier you said that he, um, a lot of your relationship now that you look back on it was he was trying to do what he thought he was supposed to do or what you might want him to do. So it sounds like you didn't get to that point where you could really share like true dreams, true goals together and work, work on them together.

Speaker 2

And that's essential now, the last few months of our marriage, he says to me, you know, I wish I would have like dated more and I would have maybe slept with Ivan and he lost his virginity to me. So he wishes he just had, that's part of the cheating part. It was like when he, when I found out he wanted, she is like, you know, you want to go have sex with other women. I have an answer. He's like, what? I'm like, divorce. He's like, no, I still want to be with you. Well, jokes on him. But uh, but, and then he was like, and I wish we would have like I, I, I guess I wish we could have maybe I met you. And then we had time apart and then I knew I wanted to be with you for sure. And then we could have had kids a little later and I just felt like I was having kids because I knew you always wanted to be a mother. And I was like, I, to me whenever he said that is like, so it's like you can't take back the kids, please don't say that like can we not like, it's really hurtful. Yeah. But that was something to say before

Speaker 4

he had the kids, you know, if that was. We discussed it. Both the kids were planned, but he's, he will say that I forced him into the kids. I'm like, I did not force you to like, I notified you. I'm not on birth control. I notified you you are not wearing a condom. I guess he knew that, but I mean I kind of pushed my husband to the first one a little bit, but the second one I always just shocked. I was like, so can we have another way? It's like, okay, well that was. Yeah, that was an easy one. Ours was basically ran out of condoms and I notified them that I was dating. Are you okay with this? I will get pregnant because it was super easy the first time. It was super easy the second time too. So you're very fertile. No more. Did you ever feel trapped with the kids though?

Speaker 2

I've, I've, I felt obligated to be with my children. I felt like I felt a lot of guilt if I were to try to ask anybody to babysit. Like I had people I knew because I had them where I grew up and I had friends that had kids and I felt like where I belonged was with my children and I feel since I've moved down here and I live with my mom and she'll babysit. I'm very grateful, like I'm able to go out and actually have a life and. But if I didn't have that available available to me, I would be perfectly fine with being at home with my children and having to eventually find a babysitter if I really wanted to do those types of things. I, I've never exactly felt trapped I guess, but it was a role I was willing to take. Like I had my first and he couldn't handle being alone a lot of the time. So when I had a second I, I was able to accept the fact that I was going to do this alone for the first year, probably have taking care of her with him being kind of a little bit supportive, but more so a handling the three year old because he had actually started to come around and forming a relationship with the older one.

Speaker 1

Let's take a moment to stop and take a quick break. We'll be right back. Do you look at your wedding pictures and wonder, how did things go so wrong? Have you given up on your relationship? Are you going to let what you've built together crumble to dust? If not, let me work with you to get your connection back on track. I'm opening my private practice up to a limited number of listeners that are serious about fighting for their relationships. Don't let your relationship, your family, your life fall because you let your pride hold you back from asking for help. Call me at six, eight, two, six, five, one, five, seven, five, two, or email me@makelovenotwaratGmail.com. Today we can turn this around together.

Speaker 5

It was husband though. It took him a good, I would say six or seven months to really be good with Zoe. You know what I mean? He was always helpful as he could be, but I could tell he was just scared out of his mind. He didn't know what to do with an infant and so that's like his comfort age is when they start moving around some and stuff. That's when he really would grow his bond with our kids heard.

Speaker 2

But I mean obviously your spend that are up for it

Speaker 5

right away. I. And I think that could be part of it, you know, like my older brother was really good with his daughter, right from the Gecko. Well he's the oldest of four other siblings, so there were babies in our house and he was just used to that, you know, my husband, his sisters, just a couple of years younger than him. And that's it. So he wasn't around babies. Yeah. My husband and I were both the babies of our family, but I was always

Speaker 2

nurturer in my friend group. Like I had friends that were two years younger than me and I had graduated high school, but they are instilled in high school. I'd go pick them up from school, take them home and be like, what homework do you have? Natural mother. And then I'd take them to work and take them to school the next morning because the one, it was one friend in particular, her dad was into like taking coke and all that, picking up hookers point and then unfortunately she took that same path because I eventually had to cut ties with her because she was not making decisions and I learned to with certain people in your life you have to let go and say I can't make your decisions. And I think that's basically what I did in my marriage. Like I can't, I can't make decisions for you.

Speaker 2

I, we, we used like. I feel like our biggest thing was like that would cut deep at both of us. If I were to say to him, I'm like, you're so controlling. He would get hurt and he would say it to me and I'd be so hurt. I'd be like, I'm not trying to control you, I'm trying to take care of you is how I saw it, but then like part of me like now is like, well I guess I could have been okay with like one example was like he wanted to go to a shooting range, but a week later he was saying how he was suicidal, so I felt like going to a shooting range when you've been suicidal is not the best option and when we got in that fight he's, he felt like I was not letting him because I had to be alone with be at home with the child and he, we needed to put the child up for adoption.

Speaker 2

I was like, cool. Yeah. No, and that's why I was the one staying home with the children because I was in it and I was. You were 100 percent committed. Yeah. I was like, I knew this is a, this is something I'm doing for life. Like even when my kids like 28 and doing whatever, I'm still going to be like, man, what can I do to make my child's life better? I feel like that's what most parents are going to always think. Like my parents, I am 28 and that's what they still do and they're my. I'm still a daddy's little girl. Oh, he brings you donuts. He brings me.

Speaker 5

Well I definitely have to say the like my husband I, that's come up in our marriage too, you know, he'll say things like, you know, I feel like you're controlling me and that's very hurtful to me because it's the same thing. I'm just trying. I'm trying to take care of you. Like maybe I know you're not so good with something and so I'm just trying to take care of it, but you know, he can see that as controlling and then you know, that's when things can get heated.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And I think that's a, a difficult line to figure out for couples because you don't want to cross the line and enable and then what you're doing when you do that is disempowering someone so they feel like I can't really take care of it and they become more dependent on you and then they also feel like you are smothering them. And all of that, um, but at the same time you again talking about being a team player, you're trying to be a team player, which also require sometimes letting a team member struggle at something when they need to because it builds self esteem and self efficacy and also with your kids doing that, it's, it's hard to know when to do it sometimes though.

Speaker 5

I also feel like we've had fights over, like I'll try this, take a step back and let him take the lead on something. And then he's like, why aren't you doing this? So there's that like tug of war for me of like where, where exactly do I fit here? Like what, what is gonna make you happy and still get things done and you know, keep things afloat but not overstep my boundaries or feel like you don't have what you need for me because I'm not helping you. So that's definitely a struggle we have. We still have. So

Speaker 3

yeah, that's, that's a hard one in my marriage too.

Speaker 2

Um, I know that,

Speaker 3

I mean the whole like, Nag thing, right? Have, you may have forgotten. So I'm going to remind you or something, you know, but legitimately sometimes jeff does forget things because he only hears one half of what I said because he's doing something else or thinking about something else and I don't know. So it is to balance like how do I handle this situation so that I'm not being in this place of being a Nag, but my needs also still need to be met and the things that need to get done are a priority to me. So I would hope they're a priority. Yeah.

Speaker 5

For the team. Yeah. That's where we struggle with that because it's always. I feel like he probably just thinks I live to nag him, but I'm in my head before I say it going, he's going to get mad. He's gonna get mad, but I need to remind them of this. I need to. I need to say this, so I'll do it. And then he gets mad. I'm navigating or I'm controlling. And it's really trying to find that balance. That's been a struggle for us. I was a nag apparently too in my marriage. But the art thing, what we came up with a system, if I wanted him to do something and it was a simple task, I would just write it on the whiteboard, be like, check your little whiteboard, write little look at your list. But then it was like cleaned the toilet has been on the list for two weeks, can we do this? Come on. There's some rules like that that we learned early on that like there's certain things that he'll do and there's certain things that I do and we've. Yeah, that is something in time we've learned. We'll clean the toilets. Was His chore. Yeah. Cause he was the one standing in Pete and getting it not. So I just take care of it. It's fine.

Speaker 5

I'm very clean. So yeah. I mean he could do it right. He just didn't want to. And so I would eventually be doing. I'd be like, I'm doing it after.

Speaker 3

Awesome. What I found that worked for me is to be able to harness my husband and a lot of men have a natural feeling. They want to be a hero and they want to help, but they don't want to feel controlled. So one thing that has worked for us is me owning my own feelings about it. Like the trash has always been my thing. Like I get anxious if the trash is overflowing, but it is his job. And if I knew if I were to empty the trash that I would feel resentful of him. So one way I've handled that is just to let them know, let them know, hey, I'm feeling really anxious that the trash is full. I mean, can you take care of that for me? And he's a lot more willing to do that. Then if I come in and I'm like, Jeff, the trash is full of your being so lazy.

Speaker 3

Sit on your ass on there and the computer. So that's, that's worked for me. Um, as being able to own my feelings about it first so that I'm telling him how you feel instead of just letting out the emotion. Yeah. Like coming from a place of of he can help me with this because I'm struggling with this feeling of anxiety and I'm feeling overwhelmed with all the things that need to happen in the house and I would really feel a lot better if the trash was emptied and I've tried all sorts of funny things about that and been like, over the trash trolls need to come here.

Speaker 4

I would get in trouble for that. It did not work. It didn't work. It was another one of those. Like now I feel like I'm being mothered because that's what a parent would say. So that one did not work. So this was, this was, there was a lot of child

Speaker 5

error. This technique

Speaker 4

I sometimes struggle with passive aggressive things. I'll say stuff. I'm like, oh, that's really passive aggressive of me, but I can't help it and I try not to. Like my mom will be show. I'd be like no screens for the rest of the night. And then she gets on her phone, gets on youtube and like, Hazel, what do you want to watch? And I'm like, Hazel. Mom said no screens. Get off when I should really say, mom, I said, no screens don't do that. Don't undermine me, but it's just easier to say it to your child and not have your mom give you a dirty look and not deal with the confrontation because the confrontation with my mom is tough and because she's also very passive aggressive. It's a fun little cycle and we're not in. My family were, well, no, no. Your mom. Remember our moms, our moms are pretty, uh, we'd be best friends except that we'd be able to stand each other. They would just like middle and pick at each other. They'd be, oh gosh. They would go together and then they'd come home to us and complain about each other. Exactly how that would happen. They'd be the best. Differentiate each other behind each other's backs. We want to experiment with it. We thought about it. We've tried going to. It's a love connection,

Speaker 5

but yeah, because my dad is just very passive and just like

Speaker 4

let's everybody do whatever in my had

Speaker 5

to. I guess that's what happens to us like 30 years down the road. We'll just don't know. That's what we become, I don't know. Well, and as you're saying that, I'm thinking about how, especially when you marry young, but also in any marriage, you grow and change throughout the marriage and so maybe somebody grows and changes in a way that you don't expect and I wonder if that's come up in your marriage. And I think that's happening to us. And now a little bit, um, you know, my husband's older so, you know, he's 35 so he's ready to just kind of sit at home and that's enough for him. He doesn't need to really get out and do anything and he's very introverted so that, you know, that's all he needs. But for me, not that the kids, you know, when the kids were younger I would do things but very, very rarely.

Speaker 5

I'm talking maybe once every couple of months I'd go out. Whereas to now, maybe I go out more like once a month maybe. Um, and that's a big struggle with us right now because he kind of, he's already passed that and I'm like, well our kids are four and six and to me they don't need me as much and I am with them all day, but they don't need to be there to make sure my baby drank the right amount of formula before she went to bed, you know, we're not there anymore and I feel more comfortable

Speaker 5

going, you know, leaving them to do that and just kinda get that time away. And that's definitely a big struggle for us because he, I don't think he understands why I need that. He thinks he should be enough. Oh, so he, he feels like he is not enough. I think so I think that's really what it comes down to. He, he should be enough that I shouldn't need that. But being so extroverted, I need that. Yeah. Because that's not really about him. That's about you, you, you feel your energy tank with interactions and connections with people and he feels his energy tank with downtime and maybe like one on one interactions. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So it's hard to understand each other's need with that and so I can see like when you were younger, even though he's introverted, he was more up to going out and stuff like that just because of your age. And so now this is developing where you have different needs, where he needs that downtime and the time to disconnect and you need the time to connect. So you're trying to navigate that together. Oh yeah. Do you think you should go with you?

Speaker 5

I've tried. He doesn't really. He doesn't really want to. Like he's happy. He gave me a game night.

Speaker 5

He did, but he really didn't want, like he's, he's made it pretty clear to me that he kind of, he doesn't need that so I don't need to try to get him out because that's not an issue for him. Hey, I'm awesome. So you should want to come out, but he doesn't want to. It's like as long as I can go out, right, I can go get what I need. And that's definitely where we're clashing because then he feels like, well I don't want to spend time with him. I mean, I do, but he also has to understand that when he's home, that's kind of my only time to get away from the kids, so I definitely have to split that time and I feel like I'm doing a good enough job. I don't, I don't think he does. And so we're trying to figure that out.

Speaker 5

Yeah. And you know, it's really hard to be able to understand when somebody has very different needs than yours, especially if there's some sort of trigger with it where he may be feeling like, well I'm, I'm just not enough for her if she needs to go out. And so that's something that he has to work through internally. That's not really about you, that's about him. And also with you being able to work through internally that um, you know, that his need to stay home as. Okay. And even though you wish he were with you, that you can go and do that by yourself knowing and being accepting of that. That's how he is. Yeah. And I, I feel like I've gotten there. I understand if he doesn't want to do that, but I definitely feel the struggle of, I don't think he wants me going anywhere and that's an issue because I need that.

Speaker 5

Yeah. So on urine you feel like you need to continue to advocate for your needs because otherwise you'd get resentful and that's not good for your marriage. Have you ever thought about in the terms of. She was just saying were you need to go out to fill up your tank and he needs to stay at home to fill up his tank? I don't feel like he should do exactly what you do. No, I mean I'm perfectly fine with going out and leaving him behind, but I think that's just. I think he feels left behind but then he doesn't want to go and so that's where I'm having the struggle can come on. Yeah. I'm like, but he doesn't that he doesn't want that. And so that's, that's where we're really like, I honestly, I don't know what to do about that because I'm not going to stop needing this.

Speaker 5

At least now, maybe five years from now, I won't need that. I'll be old and I'll be tired and lazy. You're extroverted. You probably will always need it. I mean, that's just a need you have. I just don't know how to get him to understand that and it may be something that you have to give him time and let them work through it himself because he's feeling resistant to this pattern being changed and he, he may just have to be able to work through it himself and you just be there if he wants to talk about it and talk through it. But continuing to know that that is your need and letting him know that you, you understand that he feels left out. Just just validating his feelings, you know, and let them know that you understand. He feels left out and that might be something he just has to work through himself. I know that I'm an introvert and Jeff's an extrovert and I don't want to go sometimes when he goes out and even though I've chosen to stay home, I do feel left out too and so I have to work through that because I made the choice to stay home. But it also felt like I wish I was there with him because I want to be with him, so I get the struggle. It's an internal struggle and then if I tell her how awesome she feels like I'm rubbing it in her face.

Speaker 5

Yeah. And so I have, but that's my, that's my thing that I have to work through with myself because as an introvert I know I need the downtime, but sometimes it's hard to take because I also want to be with him. But I also have to recognize his needs. Yeah. That's Kinda how for me being the extrovert, that's how I see. It's like I invited you. If you don't want to come, then yeah. That's how you. I'm going to go do what I need to do. For me, I'm like the 50 slash 51, like I'm a little bit of both so I can see both sides. I'm like, sometimes I just want to sit at home in my, in my onesie, pajamas, friends. It was hard to get me to go out. I didn't go out very much. That's really something that, um, it was literally every, maybe every other month I might go out, but our kids were younger. They were younger. Yeah. It just didn't do as much of that. But now that I am, it's definitely a power struggle between me and him and he really sees it as. Yeah, it's just a recent change. Yeah. And stuff. But I like, like I said, I feel more comfortable with.

Speaker 5

Yeah, leaving the kids and doing that and getting that time for me in learning what I need to kind of Yom really high, strong and I have a lot of anxiety and getting out really releases that for me, talking to other people. So that's just something I really need. Especially being a stay at home mom because like I said earlier, that was never my intention. I always thought I was going to go be career driven and it just kind of didn't. It just didn't fit, you know, at the time. And I did make that choice, you know, I couldn't leave my babies. That's why I stopped working full time. But now just, you know, I work with kids and I'm with my kids and I need a break my kids and if I want to go out every other Friday night, I need that understanding that I just need that couple of hours.

Speaker 4

It's really nice to just not have to take care of anybody but yourself. Like I'm going to dinner and I'm going to cut up my own food. I don't have to. I don't have to tell my son to keep sitting in a chair. I don't have to tell my daughter to stop blowing bubbles in her drink. I mean, I just all my friends that if they want to do that, go ahead. If you want to be crazy, I don't care. I'm going to do my pain. Oh, have any friends that do that stuff. I'm usually that. Now I'm going to do it. Just blows bubbles in there. I'm the friend that might wander off and look at random pains in the restaurant. No, I usually don't. I'm too comfortable

Speaker 7

give you the excuse of not excused, but a reason from the standpoint of going, well, it's Friday night. I just been all day all week

Speaker 5

tire now. He doesn't do that, but he definitely, I feel like uses the kids to guilt me like what we should be having family time and it's like, to me, I've been having all the family time I need, you know, not that I don't want to spend time with him, but really if he's not willing to go out with me, then that's kind of where that is. I'm still going to need to do that and I'm still gonna see you later. You know, I'm still coming home to you, but if you're not, if you don't want to take that evening and go out with me without the kids, then you're home and you're there to be with the kids and I'm going to go do what I need to do. So. And you appreciate his support very much. Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. I think we just need to do more laser tag. Laser tech was fun. Yeah, he liked that. We all like that.

Speaker 7

So really what's happening here is your husband's being an awesome hero by letting you go out.

Speaker 5

Oh yeah, for sure. As a team player, I should recognize him out loud for that more. I kind of, you know, I see it in my head is like, you know, you're not babysitting, they're your kids, but I do need to show him that gratitude more that you're alleging that he doesn't tell he's the kids bonding time with them because he loves them so much and yeah. And Cranky Mommy in the way.

Speaker 4

Amber doesn't do warm fuzzy too often. I used to. Yeah, I mean the other, I think it was last week or two, she was like, I love you hope. And I was like, who are you? What have you done with amber? Are you okay?

Speaker 5

You can remember one thing that flowers grow with sunshine. Yeah. So the more you can give people compliments and stuff, it's only, it only goes in your favor for sure. And I do. That is definitely something I need to do more of. I feel like it kind of always ends up in a fight before we can even get there, you know, because he's upset already. So if I want to come home and compliment him for, you know, thank you for watching the kids. Well he's already seeing they're mad because I was out. Yeah. And preemptive compliments and then all the sudden you're fighting about it instead of. Even though I came home feeling so appreciative that he took care of them and he allowed me to be out without making a big deal. You know? So yeah, that's definitely a big struggle that we're really right now we're working on.

Speaker 5

And so right now the change as you first described it, it sounded to me like the change more was him. Like he, he's changed more of wanting to stay home. But it sounds like the change looks like. I think it is definitely more me. Yeah. Kind of taking that scope of okay, our kids are a little bit bigger and I need to get out a little bit more. And him just kind of like, no, we can be at home. That should be enough for you. Well, I think the thing to keep in mind is when there is a change is that the person making the change needs to have a lot of patients because you had this dance, you were doing. The dance was feeling good. He thought it was feeling good to both of you and it was first when the kids were little and that's really where you were drawn, but now you're realizing you have these, this need to get fulfilled and it's not because he's not enough for you.

Speaker 5

It's just because as an extrovert you need to talk to strangers and like and get that contact with just people community and need that community support and contact and he just doesn't need it. So that's hard for him to understand, but it is something he's going to have to work through and so on your side of that patients. I'm just giving him the space to work through it, knowing he's going to be upset about it for awhile and that's okay because that's the whole. That's the whole process of working through something and as long as you are continuing to be understanding of his feelings. But continuing to assert your needs, you're doing the best that you can with that. I think I need to probably learn more to what I struggle with. If

Speaker 3

he's upset and he's saying something that I know it's just to kind of get me to get upset or get me riled up. I need to learn to step away, not say anything and just let it go because he's working through it in his head and I need to just step back and let him do that. And I think it's really hard as women for us, because especially natural nurturers, I'll say not only women, but anyone who's a natural nurturer who really picks up on other people's energy. It's really hard not to take it in, but the thing that helped really helps me being highly sensitive and, and pulling people, taking people's energy in is after remind myself that that's not mine. That's theirs. And they need it. Yeah. So the idea of, okay, like you said, he's saying something that feels hurtful because he's working through something that's not yours. It's his give it back to him because you can't take it. It's not yours and just reminding yourself of that. That's what helps me with it. Yeah, that's hard for me, but it's definitely something I'm, I'm learning to do. Just

Speaker 3

just kinda stopped talking, just let it go well and just know that he needs that. He needs to work through it and you talking about it with him isn't going to help him because he needs to work through it himself. And I think that's the key for a change in relationships in general is just being able to not take on the other person's struggle as much as you want to. You can. It's not yours. It's theirs. They need it for their own growth and it's just hard to see somebody else struggle that you love and you want to fix it, but you can't. And if you try, you're just enabling them and you're taking away what they need to grow. And then I'm taking away what I need because I mean I could just sit at home to make him happy, but then I'm not going to be happy. Exactly. And then you will be resentful and, and you would be a martyr and he wants to be a martyr.

Speaker 7

It's interesting that you say that he thinks that he's not being enough because he's actually being exactly what you need and he just isn't recognizing.

Speaker 3

And then I feel like, well, I'm not enough for you because you feel that way about me. It's like, well, I'm not enough for you. I feel like you guys have this same feelings but different views and we don't communicate them the same. You definitely don't. But I think the fact that you can understand that you both feel the same way and you're struggling with that might help some times when you're in the arguments to know that this is coming from a place of pain for both of us are feeling not enough. Yeah.

Speaker 6

Hmm.

Speaker 7

It's funny that you mentioned that the gap have taken some time away because that's a very big thing with like Viktor Frankl talks about that in the books. Is it man search for meaning? Viktor Frankl was a guy who was in a concentration camp and did all this stuff during the world war two, and that's a big part of what he talked about is the, you know, the end. It's also a very stoic thing where an accident something happens to you and then you have your reaction to it. So something happened. Somebody says something to you and it's that gap in between that's the most important because you only have your thoughts and your actions. That's all you ever have. So whenever you react quickly on something that ever happens, you have a difficult time to be able to evaluate and put it into real perspective because everything's about perspective. Nothing's good, nothing's bad is just perspective. I mean, uh, a deer dies and that's bad for the deer, but it's maybe good for the hunter, you know, sound like there's nothing good or bad. It's just perspective. So if you didn't take time to sort of get a better understanding before you jump on anything, it makes it a lot easier and it certainly doesn't start a new problem

Speaker 3

on top of the one that you just do. We just start, just start, just start.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 3

No, I'm definitely learning. I need to stop talking and walk away and that's okay. It's hard to know. It's something you said in earlier podcasts, you know, knowing that, think on it and then talk about it. You don't have to, you know, it's okay to go to bed angry she said and yeah, that's something I definitely took away from that was like, yeah, you know that that's okay. So maybe that's what we need to do.

Speaker 7

Well you can visualize like we talked about in another podcast about filling the other person's kept whenever he's coming to you and saying or whatever it is that he's giving you some sort of thing of his feelings of what it is. Just visualize that he's just pouring those problems or whatever into your cup. You don't have to do anything with it.

Speaker 3

You can pour it out for them and then you can both let them go.

Speaker 7

But if you come back at it then it's like, it's like you just throw it back in his face basically.

Speaker 3

Well, and I think going back to what you said that it's okay, and we talked about that earlier in this episode that just knowing that the things you're going through is okay and it's okay that we're mad at each other and we go to bed angry because we hear all this, you know, we hear all these random things. Don't go to bed angry. I mean like at every wedding somebody says that and it's total crap and then Jerry Mcguire, you complete me. I mean it's all just, you know, it's all just crap and then we think this is what we're supposed to do. You know, like your ex husband struggle with thinking I'm supposed to do all these things but he didn't really want to and it got you into this place in your relationship and if we're able to just let ourselves know that it's okay, they're not really relieves a lot of things for us. Just let that go. It's, it's okay. It's okay that I'm going to bed angry. It's okay that I maybe don't want the, you know, what I've been told I'm supposed to want from a relationship or my life. I mean it's, it's okay. Yeah, that's definitely. I mean, I can't speak for him, but that's for me, that's something that I've definitely taken in that these things were okay.

Speaker 3

You know, there was a book that came out in the seventies, I think it was seventies pop psychology.

Speaker 4

Y'All are gonna laugh maybe I read it and I was like 12 and it's called I'm okay. You're okay. And it has these like big peace signs and talks about your inner child and all this stuff, but you know what? I loved it. It really kind of shaped some of the views that I can see your daughter doing that sometimes she, she said some funny things to me, like the bully thing. My mom reads a book about bullies and you're being a bully and I was like, that sounds like terrorists daughter. Yes. You don't have to let him on your energy bus. Close that door. Your energy by says stuff. And I'm like, your mom's daughter. It's funny what they say,

Speaker 3

soak in for months, isn't it? The way she'll dislike her, her presence sometimes. How she talks. I'm like, aw man, he. Tara will just funny because I do notice that sometimes if jeff and I are arguing with her about something, she does try to step in and be a therapy

Speaker 4

and I'm like, oh my gosh, that reminds me of me as a child. But I always make sure to let her know that it's out.

Speaker 3

Okay. That we're arguing, you know, because conflict is okay. That's something that a lot of us don't feel as okay to like you're arguing. Sometimes she raise your voice, sometimes you yell. That's still okay because that's just part of conflict. It's feelings, you know? I mean it's, some things aren't okay like cussing at each other and things like that, but just the fact that you're having feelings and they're strong and you're trying to communicate them with each other and stuff like that. That's okay too because it's really. The couples that I see are that are most in trouble are the ones who aren't arguing at all because they're not talking about anything. They're not talking about anything that's important. I'll say my ex and I, we never cussed at each other. We never would like call each other names a fight and I thought that was good strength.

Speaker 3

We would never know. I mean maybe once I said something me, like I told him he was a bad dad or something like that and it's very rare for us to like, we really, I don't feel like we attack each other in that way. So I guess that's a good thing. Yeah, definitely. That's a huge strength. Sure. It's definitely happened over the years, but it's not something I can remember. So it's not, it's not common. Yeah. Know. I think one of the hardest loops to really get out of an arguments that people have is, is called the Gottman's called the attack defend mode and people get in that kind of a loop in arguments where it goes back and forth like one person tax the other defense and you can't get understanding from that, so just giving each other the benefit of the doubt to not get into that loop like you're talking about, trying to understand where your husband's coming from and that just shows me you have that strong basis of friendship and connection to even when you're going through a hard time, you want to understand each other. Yeah, so that's a huge strength.

Speaker 3

Well, thank you amber and hope for coming here today. I really appreciate your time and your openness and sharing this with us. Thank you for happiness. Thank you.

Speaker 1

It was fun.

Speaker 3

As always, I welcome your questions, comments, and love for you to be on the show. If you're interested, please email me@makelovenotwaratGmail.com. You can also contact me via twitter. My handle is at terra harrison. You can also support us on Patrion www.patrion.com/mate. More love not war. Thanks for listening.